Then you've got the people who probably make up 95% of "christians" or other religious people who sin every day of the week, go to church on sunday and start again the next week. Can anyone who has replied to this thread speaking as a "true christian" say they dont follow a similar weekly pattern? Or, are you doing like most and having premarital sex (sin), lying to friends/family (sin), having lustful thoughts (sin), etc, etc, etc.?? The flesh is weak, and we all need a divine being to overcome this right? Ah yes the infamous "shroud of toran"...the jury is still out on that one. Nobody has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was in fact the burial cloth of Jesus. Just because thousands have flocked like sheep to look at it doesn’t add any value to this arguement.
On the blind faith thing. Simply believing in something because of a feeling one gets, or because you read a book written by some guy who got his information from sources supporting his ideas....is fishy. I'd rather believe in things that I know to be fact vs. basically a history of uncomfirmed heresay and stories that have been passed down from various accounts of events which may or may not have happenend, and in turn retold, reinvented etc. Ever play the game where you sit in a circle of people, one guy starts the game by saying a phrase such as "Bob eats ham, eggs and bacon every morning then reads the wall street journal, mainly the sports colum"...then whispers it into the ear of the guy next to him? By the time the story gets down to the last person, at least a few words have been misconstrued and the story is at least partially different than it was when started. Could you imagine trying to record what may have started as accurate details of a given event in world history thousands of years before modern more accurate means of record keeping came about, and expecting the same account of the event to be accurately told centuries later? Especially when it was first told in one or more languages, then reinterpreted into other languages with bits and pieces of the story inevitably lost along the way as it was passed down along the generations?
Bible nuts pride themselves on believing in things that are hard to believe in. They think god will bless them for that. Go get your damn bible for the following, go on go get your goddamned bible!
If you want history and FACTS from the bible you’re pretty screwed. Take the book of genesis for example. In the FIRST chapter, god creates Adam & Eve at the same time. In the second chapter of genesis, god creates Adam, Adam carries on by himself for a while naming the things in gods’ creation...the animals, invents pizza, etc. Then one day Adam gets lonely and comes to god about it. God then says to Adam basically, ok I’ll provide you with a mate, plucks one of Adams’ ribs sprinkles some magic dust over it and suddenly there’s Eve. Two separate stories in the same book of the bible? Hmm. Is this a case of two different people telling two different stories of the same idea in the holy book? Word of god vs. word of man. I’ve actually asked a pastor about this conflicting story situation here. He basically said something like “oh well that’s just two different versions of the same event.” Ok, I’ll play along. But don’t go and tell me in your next breath that I should take the bible literally word for word....or when it says such and such happened, it really happened.
The “great flood” in Genesis 6: 11-13. “Noah” supposedly grabbed TWO each of approximately 10 BILLION different species of life on the planet from all the different parts of the world on ONE boat. Are we speaking figuratively again here or literally?? Again, how is a book that contains so much fiction mixed with “fact” supposed to be taken literally, as so many people seem to take it?? More likely the flood story is based on a factual event that took place somewhere around the Euphrates river. According to archaeological material I’ve read and shows I’ve seen on the History channel. Sometime around 2900 B.C. there was a storm that lasted for about six days (not 40), the river rose about 22 feet, lotsa people died....hey...natural disasters happened back THEN TOO?? Anyway, one of the survivors was a local Sumarian king named something like Zeasutra (doesn’t look too close to “Noah”), who bought a big boat, road the flood down stream, into the Persian Gulf where he ran aground, thankful for surviving he made a sacrifice on a hill and lived happily ever after. Not coincidentally similar stories have been recorded in other parts of the world throughout history. Any time mankind perseveres over natural disaster, or great strife somebody tells a story about what happened.
Exodus 14: 22-31 Moses and The Red Sea (Parting Thereof) one of my favorite fables from the bible....also spouted as fact. Thousands of Jews were supposedly enslaved by an Egyptian pharoah....no actual historical accounts of any great numbers of Jewish slaves being held in Egypt by the way, anywhere besides the bible. Moses supposedly comes to this pharoah, says “let my people go”. Mr P. Says “no” to Moses, and god supposedly lets loose 10 “plagues” on Egypt.
1) All waters in Egypt “turn to blood”, and all the fish die.
2) Frogs infest Egypt
3) Lice cover man and beast.
4) Clouds of insects attack. (Little Hitchcock-ish eh?)
5) Livestock wiped out by disease.
6) All Egyptians covered in boils.
7) Thunder, hail, fire
8) Locusts
9) Darkness for three days
10) First born of every Egyptian child dies. (There’s a KIND god.!)
Mr. P finally caves, lets Moses and the Jews free, Moses and crew wonder around in the deserts of Egypt for 40 YEARS, (leaving behind no archaeological evidence...thousands of people...40 years, food, pottery, bodies surely, etc) walk to the red sea ...which is about 50+ miles wide and who knows how deep, and he parts it, he and his people walk through the parted sea. Right. I’ve heard it said that once again this is not a LITERAL story...rather a parable/metaphor/even so far as a misinterpretation ....where the “red sea” is actually supposed to be “reed sea” or “sea of reeds”...LOL, in other words the defense being (once again in a book spouted by so many bible thumpers as the word of god and FACT)....they merely walked across a low marshy area vs. an actual parted SEA. Ok, so where’s the “miracle” in that? If there was no miracle....why such an elaborate story??
New Testament time. Jesus, did he exist? (Jesus Christ!) Even in the community of more religious people...religious archeaologists/historians who study the bible and supposed history, there are skeptics. There are in fact historical records, recorded in Rome even of an actual guy by the name of Jesus around the time he was supposed to have lived. Facts are facts though. Just because the guy or A guy named Jesus lived around the time the bible says he did....doesn’t mean he was in fact a divine person, or the son of a god. There were in fact MANY “messiahs” around the same time period. One in fact named something like “Apelonious” of a place called Tianna. Claimed by his followers to be able to heal the sick, raise the dead, walk through walls and buildings; he was also persecuted for his beliefs, brought to trial, crucified and later ascended to heaven and then returned to his followers several days later. Hmm...not the Jesus story, but in fact a very similar one. Hmm. In fact some of the same “miracles” of days gone by supposedly performed by Jesus can be seen being performed by some of these more extreme evangelical types on their money making telethons. Lame people (crippled) being made to walk, eye problems being cured, etc. Ok, so Jesus lived he probably died...I mean he was at least somewhat human right? So what really happened after he died? (Jesus 2, the Revenge) Believers often cite the “resurrection” side of the story with the fact that there was a tomb found in the region where Jesus supposedly lived, and died....and it was empty when archaeologists found it! Ok, you take a dead body and wrap it in the traditional manner of the day (in linen cloth), and leave it basically in the open. Couple thousand years go by, not even bones will be left.
Just some more food for thought. Fish and bread for the masses. Heavens please dont take everything I've just typed here as literal fact, even though I did spend a bit of time doing my homework. Remember, just because you read something that someone else read because someone else read it after hearing it was a good read doesnt mean it is in fact worth reading. Or just because millions of people have believed something to be right, does not mean it is always right. History both past and present has countless examples (holy crusades, muslim extremists, HITLER, wars, etc) of countless millions of real living, breathing fellow humans dying or being slaughtered in the name of whatever a certain group thought was right. For christ sakes, if we still thought the earth was flat, how sili would that be?
I am glad everyone handled this in a somewhat controlled manner...it isn't getting out of hand. I think that people over complicate things when they should be explained as easy as you do andithilion. It seems that over time people built up some type of automatic "Anti-God" defense system in they're body. Everyone seems so ready to decline such a truth or such information. They know exactly what to say, like, "There isn't a God...God wouldn't let so many bad things happen to people."....or "there isn't any PROOF that God exists, so I just cannot believe it." People are quick to refuse anything that has to do with God...It really scares me.
