(?)Harmonic's Revenge: Getting Ripped

Harmonic,
If I were you I would check out 9cy's thread about his routine and check out some of the links at t-nation. I was skeptical about t-nation at first, but after checking out several of their programs and trying Chad Waterbury's strength focus mesocycle , I'm sold. There are a lot of different programs to try, so you won't have any problems finding fresh routines. There is also tons of info regarding nutrition.

ok man I'll Try to address everything I can, just let me know if i Leave out anything.

1.) Atkins I am very anti-atkins, i personally never used it bascially because I know what lack of carbs can do to your body. You'll feel tired, and if you replace it with fats which would make it almost 50%fats that is not good for your body either. so if i were you id stick to the 40/20/20

2.) Supplements Ok there are two weight loss supplements (w/ the exception of the fantastic wieght loss god of a ECA stack) that I suggest they are Hot Rox or Thermorexin. Hot rox can be bought at dpsnutrition.com for the cheapest you can find it and thermorexin can be found at the afstore.com type this in if they ask for a discount, afdiscount. you might also want to add Tonalin CLA and vitrix. obviously you need the essential protein whey...and listen do not get the creatine.

3.) Work out ok first off you are going to have to learn to use free weights....and the smith machine does not count. Since you are just starting, it might be a good idea to get started on the machines but you really have to transfer over to free weight bench, squat, deadlift, and stiff leg deadlift. anyway heres a workout plan that I think might be best for your situation.
MONDAY
1.) Bench press (or in your case chest press)- 4 sets 8 reps
2.) Cable Crossovers (or Butterflies)- 3 sets 8 reps
3.) Shoulder press- 3 x 6
4.) Shoulder (vertical) raises- 3 x 10
5.) tricep (arm) extensions- 3 x 8
6.) seated dip- 3 x 8
7.) Abdominal Isolator- 4 x 15
8.) Cardio- I dont think you should do HIIT just yet, wait till you get in better shape. but try this run on a eliptical (the machine where you can like glide or slide) for 20 mins, and try to do this 20:00mins - 18:00 jog 18:00-17:30 run harder, 17:30-15:30 jog. so basically its 2 min jog/ 30 sec run harder do that for 20 mins, if your chest hurts during this stop.

tuesday
1.) squat (horizontal leg press i guess would be the closest thing)- 4 x 8
2.) seated leg curl- 3 x 8
3.) Calf raises- 3 x 10
4.) Lat Pulldowns- first set 12 reps, second set 10 reps, 3rd set 8 reps (looks like this 12, 10, 8)
5.) Arm Curl (?)- 3 x 8
6.) I would say preacher curl but i dont know what other bicep excerices you know/ they have and i am not sure what you mean by arm curl in any case aim for a 8, 6, 4
7.) abs from monday
8.) cardio from monday

wednesday off

thursday do mondays workout

friday do tuesdays workout

saturday and sunday off days...remember you get strong when u rest. I think a MWF might be too much for u right now. and the reason the reps are higher then what i stated is because i didnt know ur stats. You should cut right now, I am about 6'4 345 14% body fat and 42 inch waste, and cutting help me alot.

4.) if you do run in the morning do not run on a empty stomach like someone hear told you. what do u think starts your meatbolism? food! but there is certain food you should eat before working out....FRUIT! liver glycogen is important in fat utilization, so eat a piece of fruit before a workout...remeber not to much tho heres a good link http://www.parentsurf.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_7_22/ai_n6170379 as for what carbs to eat after working out i would also suggest a piece of fruit.

i think i answered all ur questions if i didnt let me know

dumb stupide you can edit ur message after 10mins rule anway heres my edit

add back extensions to tueday and friday at 3 x 10

5.) amount of weight to use when lifting i never used the 70% of your max thing, because i always liked to push myself and i think that will only hold u back. use weight that makes it hard for you to complete the last rep of the last set only so for example i told you to do chest press for 4 sets 8 reps. well you should be able to do 3 x 8 fairly well, work up a nice sweat but dont tire out ur chest. then on the 4th set you should barely be able to get 8 reps and this goes for every exercise with the exception of the back extensions and abs....we dont want to hurt ourselves now do we

The first thing I'm going to say is that you need to take out a lot of those machines (or all of them) and replace them with compound free weight lifts. "Your body doesn't know the difference" is a load of crap. When you take out the stabilizers, yes, your body knows the difference. Every routine should have the following basics as the core: squats, deadlifts, bench press, military press, rows, pull-ups, dips, and maybe calf raises and curls. Cleans rock too, but if you don't like them or don't want to try them without proper coaching, that's fine.

It's a myth that you have to stick to higher reps to gain size. There are many rep ranges that will build lots of muscle. Some of them will build strength too. I know strength may not be a goal of yours, but I guarantee you'll make better progress if you focus on max strength at least some of the time. I wouldn't do circuits unless you're specifically trying to have a cardiovascular, and specific cardio workouts would be better for that anyway. Stick to standard set/rep schemes. Maybe try this workout by Chad Waterbury. It combines strength and hypertrophy parameters quite effectively. If you'd prefer, you can make it 3x10 and 10x3 instead of 3x8 and 8x3. You may have to adjust the weight accordingly (use 12RM or so for 3x10).

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459533

I'm not a big fan of Atkins-type diets. I did a very low-carb diet a while back (T-Dawg 2.0) and definitely felt some lethargy after about 2 weeks. And that wasn't even ketogenic. It worked well for fat loss, but you'd have to eat a ridiculous amount of food to put on any significant amount of muscle with a diet like that. I'd say to eat and train for muscle gain. Simply getting serious about nutrition and training will probably give you a decrease in BF%, and there's no point in cutting if there isn't much to cut down to.

For macros, I'd first figure out your total caloric intake. The figure out yout protein intake (think of 1g per pound as the rock bottom minimum, 1.5 or more would be better), have 25-35% of your calories from fat, and make up the rest with carbs. Fruits and veggies, oatmeal, and sweet potatoes are my personal favorite sources of carbs. Adding fish oil to your diet may help with fat loss. Look at the amount of EPA/DHA in each serving, and figure how many servings you need for 6g of that. Different brands have differing amounts.

For workout nutrition, the cheap way to go is whey isolate and maltodextrin. 25g of protein and 50g of carbs should do the trick. Add some BCAA powder in there to really boost the effectiveness. If you have the $$ (it is pretty cheap), have a serving right before, and a serving after. There's a pretty good argument for having your post-workout shake an hour after you finish your workout, contrary to tradition. Dave Barr has a good article on this:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=0C700AE616930D30B3002DEB330BFF69.hydra?id=659666

I'd recommend using HIIT 2 times per week, 3 if you can hack it. This will keep your BF% under control while adding muscle. Check out my other thread for links on that topic.

yo cyc man hes just starting out, if he jumps right into free weight exercies like squats and deads he is most likely gonna get hurt...but you are right like i said before hes gotta go over to free weights. and he is trying to cut not increase size or strenght....since he is starting he will see newbie gains, so he should stick to a higher rep low rest workout to keep his heart rate up. and bro i think HIIT is way to hard for anyone just starting conditioning. in the cardio i suggested there is a very slight inclusion of HIIT. To me it sounds like he doesnt want to add mass so deads are totally out of the question, and cleans are is a very complex exercies, and he aint ready for it (or probablly not)

im2manly said:

yo cyc man hes just starting out, if he jumps right into free weight exercies like squats and deads he is most likely gonna get hurt.

Click to expand...

Not true. I see more people getting hurt because they try free weights first and then they think they're strong enough to actually use any weight on a real lift. Better to lift correctly from the beginning.

and he is trying to cut not increase size or strenght.

Click to expand...

He's going to need to add muscle to look like those pics he posted. Since he's a newbie, he may be able to lose fat at the same time though. Better to add some mass and then cut than to cut down to bones (no offense, harmonic, everyone starts somewhere) and then try to add lean mass.

since he is starting he will see newbie gains, so he should stick to a higher rep low rest workout to keep his heart rate up.

Click to expand...

Why? Maybe he should stick to 3x8 or 3x10 for the first few weeks, but there's no reason not to work on strength. You will ALWAYS get better results if you focus at least some of your training on maximal strength.

and bro i think HIIT is way to hard for anyone just starting conditioning. in the cardio i suggested there is a very slight inclusion of HIIT.

Click to expand...

You're probably right there. It depends on the current conditioning level, but you can still do cardio with that principle. Maybe instead of jog/sprint he can do walk/jog or something. Increasing the intensity, even for only a couple 30-second intervals is going to increase caloric expenditure and therefore fat loss.

To me it sounds like he doesnt want to add mass so deads are totally out of the question, and cleans are is a very complex exercies, and he aint ready for it (or probablly not)

Click to expand...

You can do deadlifts until the cows come home and not gain a pound if you aren't eating to gain mass. Muscle size is made in the kitchen; weight training is just the catalyst for muscular growth. Deadlifts are one of the best lifts you can do, no matter what your goals.

Cleans may be too complex for now, but he may want to try them eventually. They're a lot of fun and effective as hell.

you have to put priorities first 9c9...he is a newbie so almost any strenght program will get him big....his waist is 42 inches, if he doesnt want a bigger or ass or waist he should not deadlift, thats why i said he shouldnt because it (along with squats) will make your ass and waist bigger if you do them....his main priority at 28% body fat is to lose weight, and keeping the reps around 8 and 10 would be better for what hes aiming to do, and 8 and 10 reps will add muscle i am living proof of that. Harmonic listen ok do not deadlift for what you want to do there is no need, i stopped deadlifting and did a program kind of like what u got and my waist went from 48 to 42 inches in 2 months. first lower your body fat and lose weight then you can worry about strenght and dead lifts....9c9 for his health he needs to concentrate on losing weight and not strength this used to be my problem thank god i stopped all that nonsense.

Gentlemen, first I want to thank both of you for everything you've contributed. You're both right when you said I was a newbie, and honestly I'd rather two people who know what they're doing offer me conflicting advice; than a hundred idiots all telling me to drink salt watter everyday 'cause it'll make me huge and skinny! So seriously, thank you to everyone who's helping out.

Next, I think you've both got some good points: 9cy, you're right, I do need to have something to cut down to, and 2manly you're right that I need to get healthy; honestly I'd love to do both at the same time. In any case, I want to interject something: I know I'm not going to get cut down to those pictures of mine overnight; I honestly don't know what a reasonable time frame would be, considering where I'm at. I was hoping to get there in a year's time (Please, offer your input on this, as I've really *no* point of reference!). I don't know if that changes your respective views on things or not, but I'd rather do this well, do this healthfully and get to my goal next October, than to do this unhealthyfully and get there in six months.

As for the Atkins: It may make the both of you cringe, but I am going to try to cut down my carbs. That said, when I say cut down I don't mean the 20g max for the first two weeks of Atkins, nor do I mean the "More than 100g a day and you'll get fat!" Atkins. Right at the moment I am trying to get my protien intake to where it needs to be (1.25g/lb, right? 1.81g/lb according to Bionic.) While at the same time trying to have the majority of my carbs pre and post workout. (Usually around 50g in a two hour span.) Also it needs to be noted that I'm not planning on doing this Atkins for life BS, so (With luck) in fifty years I won't have a heart attack thanks to eating a bowl of pig fat for breakfast each morning.

Anyhow, I want to add this one little note in: I know the three of you (Bionic, 2manly and 9cy9) disagree on a lot, but just the fact that you're helping has done a lot. You've all given me a hell of a lot of motivation, a lot of "Hey, if I work my ass off I can actually do this!", a lot of good advice and most importantly, the knowledge that if I need help there are people who will give it. So I say again: Thank you all, you've done me a lot of good.

-Harm-

(Also: Cy, don't worry, I'm not offended: I know I'm new, that's why I started this. )

Edit: You're both right when you say I *am* a newb.

lol trust me being a newbie can be good sometimes....lol the gains can be amazing. I ve seen guys benching 135 to 250 in 4 months. anyway the reason I am so confident in what i say is because these guys havent gone throught what i had to. They can say waht they want but they didnt (or probablly not, not meant to sound like i know everything in the world or sound cocky) drop 6 inches in the waist and almost 40lbs in 2 months. and i kept alot of muscle....o and buddy you defnitly can get cut and healthy...from what i got from 9c9's post he wants you to concentrate on strenght (i could be wrong so dont get mad bro) that would require you to eat more cals and get wider. Right now, i think we need to slim down and start cutting before we even worry about strenght. p.s. 8-10 reps will def. add strength especially when ur a newbie...hell i do tri extensions and tri bench for 10 reps and i can bench over 400. so dont worry about it.

im2manly said:

lol trust me being a newbie can be good sometimes....lol the gains can be amazing. I ve seen guys benching 135 to 250 in 4 months. anyway the reason I am so confident in what i say is because these guys havent gone throught what i had to. They can say waht they want but they didnt (or probablly not, not meant to sound like i know everything in the world or sound cocky) drop 6 inches in the waist and almost 40lbs in 2 months. and i kept alot of muscle....o and buddy you defnitly can get cut and healthy...from what i got from 9c9's post he wants you to concentrate on strenght (i could be wrong so dont get mad bro) that would require you to eat more cals and get wider. Right now, i think we need to slim down and start cutting before we even worry about strenght. p.s. 8-10 reps will def. add strength especially when ur a newbie...hell i do tri extensions and tri bench for 10 reps and i can bench over 400. so dont worry about it.

Click to expand...

I think it's fine if he lifts purely for hypertrophy for right now. It's probably better at this point to keep the reps relatively high though, since he's a beginner. At some point, he's going to need to include phases of strength work though. Nothing major, maybe 4-6 weeks of a routine emphasizing maximal strength and hypertrophy. You don't have to get bigger/heavier/wider to get stronger. It may help, but it isn't necessary. You can even gain strength on a cutting diet. It isn't as easy, but it can be done so long as the diet isn't ultra strict and you periodize your training appropriately.

Focusing on strength isn't "nonsense," it's a sure-fire way to get good gains. You won't get huge just because you're training for strength, and you won't get a thick waist just because you're doing deadlifts. The reason you lost 6 inches off your waist is that you also lost 40 lbs in that 2 month period. Anyone would lose 6 inches, it had nothing to do with deadlifts.

Harmonic, I think for right now if you just eat healthily with plenty of protein, and hit the weights hard and effectively, your body composition is going to make a change for the better. No need in getting overly complicated as a newbie. You're in the gym and you're cleaning up your diet. That's all you need for now. I wouldn't worry about going on a particular cutting diet, just get enough protein, watch your carb intake (but don't get to obsessed like you said), and supplement with fish oil. Get on a good lifting program. This is a really good basic program that prince Albert posted in another thread:

prince Albert said:

Back/biceps

Weighted chins 3x6-8
bentover row or dumbell row 3x8
deadlift 3x3
barbell curl 3x8

Chest/shoulders/tris

Low incline d/b press 3x8
weighted dips 3x6
military press 3x8
lying tricep extensions or close grip bench press 3x8

Legs/abs

Squats 4x6
stiff leg deadlift 4x8
Standing calf raise 3x10

abs,take your pick plenty of options.

Click to expand...

After a month or two of eating and training like this, evaluate your progress. Get some bodyfat calipers since your goal is leanness, and measure yourself now and a month or two from now. Make changes to what you're doing based on your progress. And do the damn deadlifts. lol The volume of deadlifts in that program isn't going to give a whole lot of hypertrophy even if you're eating a lot.

Oh, and PS: women like squat asses. The same way men like squat asses on women. :D

wait wait wait a second. First off deadlifts do make your waist bigger because if you do it right it works your hips,glutes and your groin area. 9c9 is right though you can add muscle while cutting..i am still in the cutting process and at the start i was benching 315 12times currently i can do it 14 times (now not sure if i increases strenght or my muscle fibers are altered)...the reason he can get stronger and cut is because he is new at this, i am sure whenever u started you got astronomical gains....and dude his body fat is almost 30 percent, that is very unhealthy for the heart (dont mean to offend b/c im 340 and that is unhealthy regardless of body fat%) and I highly doubt he can do weighted chin ups and the reason i lost 6 inches is not becuse i lost 40lbs because last year when i was cutting and still deadlifting and squating i lost maybe 2 inches on my waist but lost 30lbs.

Anyway you are right he does need to eventually need to cycle strenght work with cutting and time off. but if you throw this guy right in there to do deadlifts, squats, and barbell rows theres a more then likely chance he is going to fuck up his back. hes gotta get comfortable do more research on technique and not worrying about moving the most weight. like you said before my friend its all about priorities.

anyway harmonic eventually These following exercises should be the staples to your workouts ( none on that horrible smith machine) EVENTUALLY
squats
deadlifts
barbell rows
Bench press
Barbell Press

seriously you should start asking trainers at ur gym on how to perform these exercises. Just so I know what you want Harmonic, do you want to lose weight and cut or build mass and strength?

im2manly said:

wait wait wait a second. First off deadlifts do make your waist bigger because if you do it right it works your hips,glutes and your groin area.

Click to expand...

What do the hips, glutes and groin have to do with the waist?

9c9 is right though you can add muscle while cutting..i am still in the cutting process and at the start i was benching 315 12times currently i can do it 14 times (now not sure if i increases strenght or my muscle fibers are altered)...the reason he can get stronger and cut is because he is new at this, i am sure whenever u started you got astronomical gains

Click to expand...

Sho nuff did.

....and dude his body fat is almost 30 percent, that is very unhealthy for the heart (dont mean to offend b/c im 340 and that is unhealthy regardless of body fat%) and I highly doubt he can do weighted chin ups

Click to expand...

Obviously something like weighted chins would be a goal to work toward. And I never told him not to lose fat, in fact the whole time I've been saying that he can probably lose fat and gain muscle. 28% is too much, yes, but you can still train for strength/size while losing fat, especially as a newbie.

and the reason i lost 6 inches is not becuse i lost 40lbs because last year when i was cutting and still deadlifting and squating i lost maybe 2 inches on my waist but lost 30lbs.

Click to expand...

There are really too many factors for either of us to know whether your decrease in waist size was due to deads or not.

One pic I like to point out to people is this one of Dave Gulledge. He's a very successful competitive powerlifter (which means he does deadlifts A LOT) and he manages to have a pretty slim waist.

http://www.midwestbarbell.com/~midwestmd/Strongman/DSCN0115.JPG

Anyway you are right he does need to eventually need to cycle strenght work with cutting and time off. but if you throw this guy right in there to do deadlifts, squats, and barbell rows theres a more then likely chance he is going to fuck up his back. hes gotta get comfortable do more research on technique and not worrying about moving the most weight. like you said before my friend its all about priorities.

Click to expand...

Why does he need to do tons of research before he gets off the machines? Harmonic, if you decide to start doing compound lifts (which you should, IMO, unless you have any health conditions that would make it dangerous), watch some video clips and for the more technical lifts such as squats and deads, read up a bit on technique, and then just go for it. No need to obsess over details. These lifts aren't exactly rocket science. I squatted the first time I stepped into a gym because I had read that squats were one of the best lifts you could do. Not once have I wished I had started on leg presses or extensions. If you use your head, you'll be fine. Just go easy with the weight until you're comfortable with the lift.

anyway harmonic eventually These following exercises should be the staples to your workouts ( none on that horrible smith machine) EVENTUALLY
squats
deadlifts
barbell rows
Bench press
Barbell Press

Click to expand...

Sooner rather than later, IMO.

seriously you should start asking trainers at ur gym on how to perform these exercises.

Click to expand...

That's assuming that the trainers at your gym know what they're talking about. In my experience, many trainers will just tell you not to do squats because they're bad for your knees or they're dangerous or some other such nonsense.

Harmonic, you're getting a lot of differing opinions here, but keep in mind, that's exactly what they are - opinions. Do what sounds best to you, the main thing is that you're in the gym and eating right.

dude hips and glutes do affect your waist

~Smile.~

2manly, you're right, I would like to get cut. ~Nod~ 9cy, you're right, I'd like to get strong. I'd like both.

I'm gonna' simplify things for you guys a little bit. I know I need to get off the machines, but I also know that I'd like to go to the weights will a pretty good understanding of what to do, and how to do it. As such, 2manly, I'm going to take your advice and do my research, look up a variety of exercises and how to do them well. As such, my goal is to get into the free weights in a month, so if there is a consensus to come to, aim to have found it by December 2nd.

Once again, gentlemen, your help is more helpful than I think either of you know.

Tanks again,
-Harm-

Also! I think it bears mentioning: I DO want a butt! Something that my girlfriend will envy. (2manly, don't worry, of the 60 extra pounds I'm carrying, about 4oz. of it is in my butt area. ) I don't really know what a 'squat ass' looks like, but I'm sure it looks better than a "Hey, I play video games all day and I really like apple juice! ass".

im2manly said:

dude hips and glutes do affect your waist

Click to expand...

http://www.corset.dk/News/waist corset 500.jpg

Tell that to her.

http://www.schwarzenegger.it/gallery/musclegallery1/m52.jpg

Or to Arnold. And I guarantee he was doing deadlifts.

first off i hope your kidding about the first picture, because she wearing that thing around her waist to make it smaller and give her a hour class figure aka a corset....i dont see what this has to do with deadlifting b/c getting glutes from deadlifting is different from having a nice ass. And I am almost definite someone told me arnolds waist was around 40inches and todays bodybuilders waist arent exactly skinny either

Gentlemen, while I appericate your respective furvor in regards to each of your perspectives, I don't want any animosity to start on account of me, or on account of a thread that I started.

=/

dont worry bro there is no anomosity, were just having a conversation